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Viper ShizzIe Habitual Euthanasia Dystopia Alliance	Posted - 2010.04.26 18:44:00 - [1] I hear crying on the forums when you get outplayed is a viable tactic.
Viper ShizzIe Habitual Euthanasia Dystopia Alliance	Posted - 2010.04.26 18:52:00 - [2] Originally by: Liang Nuren Edited by: Liang Nuren on 26/04/2010 18:47:09 Originally by: Viper **zIe I hear crying on the forums when ~~you get outplayed~~ enemies bring uncounterable ships is a viable tactic. FTFY, and yeah.. me too! People were saying the same thing about bringing triage carriers to every fight (which these guys do) a year ago. Cry more.
Viper ShizzIe Habitual Euthanasia Dystopia Alliance	Posted - 2010.04.26 19:05:00 - [3] Originally by: Liang Nuren There's just a tiny difference between a triage carrier and a supercarrier. I dunno, maybe the part about the supercarrier being able to cyno out at will or the triage carrier not being able to provide DPS support... Cry moar, your overpowered supercarrier toy will be taken away. -Liang So mad. You obviously don't understand that motherships can be tackled in lowsec, go check the CH killboard, I'm pretty sure that they've killed about 20 of these ~invulnerable~ and ~unkillable~ ships that can ~jump out at will~ and are ruining the game.
Viper ShizzIe Habitual Euthanasia Dystopia Alliance	Posted - 2010.04.26 20:54:00 - [4] tl;dr OP's corp tried to escalate a BS fight with carriers, OP's corp loses carrier to re-escalation, OP's corp starts bawwing, some siigari fanboi jumps in and whiteknights ******s (as usual), everyone wins.
Viper ShizzIe Habitual Euthanasia Dystopia Alliance	Posted - 2010.04.26 21:14:00 - [5] Originally by: Liang Nuren - Whether the OP lost carriers to a re-escalation is immaterial to the argument that supercarriers and titans are overpowered in low sec due to most of their counters not actually working. TBH, the thread is starting to sound like "Bawwww, someone might be able to tackle my low sec pwnmobile with less than the megablobs I'm afraid to face in 0.0!!! Bawwww!!" Man if you guys feel that things are so boring in 0.0, why don't you unblue a few of your neighbors? What, skeert? -Liang If the counters don't work, why do they die in lowsec? I think your problem is more than 20 people in frigates and battleships with HIC support can't kill a mothership now, which is pretty much the way it should be and also the way it's always been. If anything, motherships are worse now in lowsec since they can't store fighters (except the nyx and maybe the Hel) which work much better against subcaps than fighterbombers. When's the last time you saw a mothership chase someone down and tacke it, you have to be pretty stupid (or in a capital) to be killed by one. Also, you might have noticed that we're not affiliated with any SC or NC entity (except CH who we work with on occasion) and we're a 53 charcter corp (with about 20 individual people). Not exactly the ~megablob~ that you keep crying about, is it?
Viper ShizzIe Habitual Euthanasia Dystopia Alliance	Posted - 2010.04.26 21:39:00 - [6] Originally by: Bellum Eternus The reason you don't see SCs thrown around in 0.0 too often is that there are Titans on hand with DDs ready to one volley them to bits. You sure know a lot about this game. Originally by: Bellum Eternus I haven't confined my main to the coffin that is my Nyx and I never will. You have a nyx and you think titans can one volley it, really? Originally by: Bellum Eternus This is particularly the case when all the SCs are set up specifically to spidertank with all RRs, no local reps and an ultra-hardened tank. No bueno. Bringing proper fits gives you an upper hand? Why I never. Originally by: Bellum Eternus Liang brought it up earlier and I think it's a great idea as well, even if I do have a SC myself- SCs need to lose their EW immunity in lowsec. Titans have lost their DD use in lowsec. This sets the precedent for the game design. Titans haven't lost their EW immunity in lowsec, there is no precedent except your whinging.
Viper ShizzIe Habitual Euthanasia Dystopia Alliance	Posted - 2010.04.26 22:12:00 - [7] Originally by: Pheusia Originally by: Viper **zIe I hear crying on the forums when you get outplayed is a viable tactic. How did it work for you after D-G? Nice troll bro I have no idea where D-G is or what happened there~
Viper ShizzIe Habitual Euthanasia Dystopia Alliance	Posted - 2010.04.26 23:19:00 - [8] Originally by: Bellum Eternus 1) You answered your own question with respect to Titans easily killing a SC in one volley: Titan(S). Plural. One volley from multiple ships. Instantly killed in one volley. No amount of spider tanking will save you from an alpha strike. Only an idiot would have confused what I said to derive your interpretation of my statement. 2) How am I complaining about proper fits? I'm simply reiterating how much more effective spider tanking SCs can be with optimal fits vs. simple 6x 'solo' fits. Only an idiot would have confused what I said to derive your interpretation of my statement. 3) Titans have lost their ability to doomsday in lowsec. Not EW immunity. Keep up. Only an idiot would have confused what I said to derive your interpretation of my statement. You sure know a lot about this game. Only an idiot would have confused what I said to derive your interpretation of my statements. What's with all the ad hominem Bellum, I just pointed out what you said. Let's do some simple numbers here. It would take 12 titans to kill a properly fit Nyx with DDs (on lowest resist, explosive), it would take 19 to kill a properly fit Nyx if it decided to overload its hardeners. This is all assuming it has no gang bonuses and if they all had DD 5. FYI, it's 26-27 with a Erebus boosting. Only an idiot would think this is feasible without the node crashing and only an idiot would take a mothership into such a situation. Next, there is no difference between a "solo fit" mothership and a "bricked RR fit mothership". Only an idiot would have personal reps and only an idiot wouldn't try to maximize their effective hitpoints. Also, maybe you should understand the definition of precedent. Saying that one class of ships lost the ability to do one thing while assuming that means an entirely different class of ships should not be able to do something completely different does not imply precedent. Hell, it doesn't even imply that the two classes are connected in any way (you may notice the use of the word different). Only an idiot could complain about things being "overpowered" or "game breaking" or "not fair" when they have no idea how they work in the actual game environment.
Viper ShizzIe Habitual Euthanasia Dystopia Alliance	Posted - 2010.04.26 23:40:00 - [9] Edited by: Viper **zIe on 26/04/2010 23:43:26 Originally by: Liang Nuren Originally by: Viper **zIe Only an idiot could complain about things being "overpowered" or "game breaking" or "not fair" when they have no idea how they work in the actual game environment. I thought I'd point out again that in low sec (only), my Sabre doesn't counter your Nyx. I think we all know what the right answer is here, and it isn't putting bubbles in low sec. Supercaps lose ewar immunity in lowsec. TIA -Liang It also doesn't counter sieged dreads or carriers in triage which can jump as soon as their cycle is over, it also doesn't counter titans. Hey, guess what, there's good news. There's a class of ships that was designed to do exactly that, and they do a pretty good job at it. Maybe you should try using one of the ships specifically designed for tackling ewar immune ships instead of crying that your ~insert random scrub ship here~ can't do it. Originally by: Bellum Eternus My comparison (to make it completely clear) between Titans and SC in lowsec is that Titans lose a SHIP FUNCTION (DD) in lowsec. I never said they lose EW immunity. Why so obtuse? I'm saying that if it's game balancing to have no DDs in lowsec for Titans then that sets precedent for a class of ships to lose a special ability per security status of the system. You're really going to continue to pick at this? DD originally worked in lowsec post-patch, it was removed because it was an "exploit" since the AOE DD didn't work before, not because it broke balance. There was even discussion of re-adding it to the game, but now that Abathur has left and nobody at CCP actually cares about capitals anymore I doubt very much that it will happen. Also maybe we don't use them in 0.0 because escalation as a 50 character corp is somewhat impossible to do in that regard without having half of the game blue~
Viper ShizzIe Habitual Euthanasia Dystopia Alliance	Posted - 2010.04.27 00:04:00 - [10] Originally by: Liang Nuren Here, let's see if I can spell this out clearly: - Supercarriers are a supercap - There are four counters to a supercap in 0.0 - There are megablobs and massive napfests in 0.0 - There is exactly one counter to a supercap in low sec. - Supercarriers are fully functional in low sec => Supercarriers are more powerful in low sec - which is a place singularly ill suited to doing anything about them. There are two reasonable solutions to a glaring game imbalance here: - Ban all supercaps from low sec - Supercaps lose ewar immunity and fighter bombers in low sec -Liang Ed: Also, dictors are hardly "scrub ships" considering that they've been used many times to counter supercaps .... in 0.0 Do you actually play this game? Megablobs and napfests are involved in lowsec as well (especially when there are dumb supercaps to kill) they are, however, far less prevalent. The HIC is a single counter to a supercap in lowsec, neuting/bumping is another (that's how you had to do it before HICs, remember). Along the same lines as your whinge, you should remove EW invulnerability from siege modules and triage modules as well, right. Also, please tell me ways to kill a triage carrier in lowsec within its 5 minute triage cycle without using motherships or above a dozen dreads/carriers, because it's sure as hell going to jump out before you can get a point on it when triage drops. You can't really say that motherships are breaking the game because you're just too lazy to bring a ship that counters them. Also, I like the point LeSkunk made about them being FIVE TIMES more powerful, your fallacies are showing~

Viper ShizzIe Habitual Euthanasia Dystopia Alliance	Posted - 2010.04.27 00:19:00 - [11] Originally by: Morgs44 I wouldn't say i am crying about it yet (well maybe over a nice battle gone due to a sc) but just stating that they are getting common (well in our area). You dropped a triage archon to fight someone who you outnumbered and you're complaining about ruining good fights? Really? Guess what, we aren't a massive 0.0 alliance with multiple supercaps online either. We're a 53 character corp, just about the same size as yours and definitely smaller than your alliance. If you hadn't have brought a triage archon in to save you from our smaller numbers (lol) then we wouldn't have needed to bring the motherships in. You decided to escalate, you paid the price, now you get to cry about it on an internet spaceship forum.
Viper ShizzIe Habitual Euthanasia Dystopia Alliance	Posted - 2010.04.27 00:29:00 - [12] Originally by: Morgs44 Originally by: Viper **zIe Originally by: Morgs44 I wouldn't say i am crying about it yet (well maybe over a nice battle gone due to a sc) but just stating that they are getting common (well in our area). You dropped a triage archon to fight someone who you outnumbered and you're complaining about ruining good fights? Really? Guess what, we aren't a massive 0.0 alliance with multiple supercaps online either. We're a 53 character corp, just about the same size as yours and definitely smaller than your alliance. If you hadn't have brought a triage archon in to save you from our smaller numbers (lol) then we wouldn't have needed to bring the motherships in. You decided to escalate, you paid the price, now you get to cry about it on an internet spaceship forum. Come on buddy, dropping a single carrier cant be compared to dropping a sc. You drop something that's virtually unkillable by what we have on grid and we'll do the same.
Viper ShizzIe Habitual Euthanasia Dystopia Alliance	Posted - 2010.04.27 00:40:00 - [13] Edited by: Viper **zIe on 27/04/2010 00:40:56 Originally by: Ephemeron Viper ****zIe come on, you gotta admit that motherships in low sec are overpowered at least a little. Maybe not as much as your main opponents say, but at least a little You should also be aware that multiple DD is currently the most effective way to dispatch motherships. When CCP were buffing them, they thought specifically about 0.0 PvP dynamics, and specifically addressing the Titan's DD issue. DD was the main reason for boost. Since DD is not available in low sec, performance of motherships in low sec was boosted without justifiable reason. The only question is about the magnitude of overpower, and how severe the nerf should be. I suggest you try convince people that only a moderate nerf is needed, instead of trying to convince them there is no problem at all, which is doomed to fail. Motherships are balanced for 0.0 considering their cost and the effort that goes into building them, as well as the little thing about not being able to dock and keeping a character tied down. In lowsec "v0v", they are powerful but not to the point of breaking the game or being unkillable. The best way to dispatch motherships is with motherships, not with titans. Guess what, motherships work against motherships in lowsec too. Who would have thought. Edit: Oh look, it only took 1 HIC too~
Viper ShizzIe Habitual Euthanasia Dystopia Alliance	Posted - 2010.04.27 00:57:00 - [14] Originally by: Liang Nuren No, I can definitely bring a ship that counters them... the simple fact is that the counters in low sec are much less powerful and numerous than the counters in 0.0. -Liang So you'd have a ship that costs 11b to build, requires an alt account to use, can't dock, can't "disengage" on-grid (i.e mwd away) and allow it to be scrambled by any scrub in a t1 frigate (or ibis~) when there's already a dedicated ship that would allow you to do all of this? And you'd leave other EW-immune ships alone when they are just as powerful if not more powerful in specific situations? Really? CCP should hire you, sounds like you know what you're talking about.
Viper ShizzIe Habitual Euthanasia Dystopia Alliance	Posted - 2010.04.27 01:26:00 - [15] Originally by: Liang Nuren Originally by: Viper **zIe So you'd have a ship that costs 11b to build, requires an alt account to use, can't dock, can't "disengage" on-grid (i.e mwd away) and allow it to be scrambled by any scrub in a t1 frigate (or ibis~) when there's already a dedicated ship that would allow you to do all of this? And you'd leave other EW-immune ships alone when they are just as powerful if not more powerful in specific situations? Really? CCP should hire you, sounds like you know what you're talking about. Cry moar, your supercarrier i-win button might actually require some support or be in danger when used recklessly? -Liang Solo motherships are pretty simple to kill~ Also, a mothership can't kill your sabre, can it?
Viper ShizzIe Habitual Euthanasia Dystopia Alliance	Posted - 2010.04.27 01:57:00 - [16] Originally by: Morgs44 I would genuinely like to see a km of a solo super carrier without multiple super carriers on it. http://killboard.cryhavoc-eve.net/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=47450 only one on that~
Viper ShizzIe Habitual Euthanasia Dystopia Alliance	Posted - 2010.04.27 02:41:00 - [17] Originally by: Liang Nuren FTFY. You just don't understand how unreasonable what you're saying really is in a lot of ways. Look, I'm not asking for Supercarriers to suck - I'm asking for them to not be less vulnerable in low sec than in 0.0. -Liang You're asking for them to be more vulnerable in lowsec than in 0.0
Viper ShizzIe Habitual Euthanasia Dystopia Alliance	Posted - 2010.04.27 02:47:00 - [18] Originally by: Liang Nuren Originally by: Viper **zIe You're asking for them to be more vulnerable in lowsec than in 0.0 Ok, then lets put bubbles of all varieties in low sec. -Liang Nah let's just let everyone with a warp disruptor or a scram be able to tackle them when there are already specialized ships that can (because people who are too lazy to fly them like to complain about how they don't work well enough)
Viper ShizzIe Habitual Euthanasia Dystopia Alliance	Posted - 2010.04.27 02:55:00 - [19] Originally by: Bellum Eternus Originally by: Viper **zIe You're asking for them to be more vulnerable in lowsec than in 0.0 Viper- My only issue with SC in lowsec is this: unbreakable spider tanks. That's it. What if: 1) SCs were able to be jammed by ECM and/or affected by damps, but left unaffected by webs/normal disruptors? or 2) SCs can't fit remote reps. Leave that the domain of Carriers? Yes, I know #2 sounds insane, I'm just tossing it out there. :p Wouldn't really have a problem with either of these, most supercaps don't fit a multitude of remote reps, that capability is generally left to carriers anyway. Oh you can jam (well, break lock) on motherships with the remote ECM burst, but that's a whole different subject.
Viper ShizzIe Habitual Euthanasia Dystopia Alliance	Posted - 2010.04.27 03:10:00 - [20] Maybe CCP should introduce a heavy-tanking, fast, high sensor stregnth, cruiser hull that can tackle EWAR immune ships in lowsec. Maybe that would allow people to kill motherships and titans, they could even hold dreads down in siege and triage carriers. Oh, wait, they did that two years ago. Sheeeeeeeeeeiiiiiiiiiiiit

Viper ShizzIe Habitual Euthanasia Dystopia Alliance	Posted - 2010.04.27 03:43:00 - [21] So you can't solo a capital in your battleship or gank it with 10? Damn son, that sure is gamebreaking.
Viper ShizzIe Habitual Euthanasia Dystopia Alliance	Posted - 2010.04.27 05:39:00 - [22] Originally by: Mistress Suffering I suspect Viper is just worried some CCP random who doesn't actually play with clueful groups will read this and become confused. Since that's basically everyone in game design and balance, yep.
Viper ShizzIe Habitual Euthanasia Dystopia Alliance	Posted - 2010.04.27 07:46:00 - [23] Originally by: Morgs44 My worry is that sc might be the new falcon as it could reduces pvp in low sec.
Viper ShizzIe Habitual Euthanasia Dystopia Alliance	Posted - 2010.04.27 08:24:00 - [24] I, too, often compare spaceship videogames to real life.
Viper ShizzIe Habitual Euthanasia Dystopia Alliance	Posted - 2010.04.27 08:30:00 - [25] Originally by: Tulisin Dragonflame Originally by: Viper **zIe I, too, often compare spaceship videogames to real life. You do, without knowing it, because your ideas of how things are supposed to work are grounded in the reality in which you were raised. This is why new players instinctively find EVE "unfair" (because it absolutely is, by real life standards) before they acclimate to EVE's own set of rules, morals, and philosophies. In the end, games always end up, on some level, being a metaphor for real life. Ignoring examples set by real life because "This is a game, real life obviously never applies" is far more unrealistic than the opposite. You're right, I find myself doing this all the time. Thank you for finally pointing this out for me.
Viper ShizzIe Habitual Euthanasia Dystopia Alliance	Posted - 2010.04.28 04:49:00 - [26] Originally by: Liang Nuren - Lack of doomsdays If they allowed DDs in lowsec again would you quit whining?
Viper ShizzIe Habitual Euthanasia Dystopia Alliance	Posted - 2010.04.28 23:33:00 - [27] Originally by: Liang Nuren And what happens to those young/small alliances that want to try living out in lowsec - only to be greeted by dozen supercarrier hotdrops on phantasms and 30 man titan bridges every time they undock? -Liang They could kill them, just a thought.
Viper ShizzIe Habitual Euthanasia Dystopia Alliance	Posted - 2010.04.29 00:37:00 - [28] Originally by: HarrietMiers Edit: Viper what in gods name did you to do Liang to make him so upset and unreasonable about all this? You two used to date or something? Didn't go to any of the Portland meets maybe? No idea.
Viper ShizzIe Habitual Euthanasia Dystopia Alliance	Posted - 2010.04.29 03:16:00 - [29] Originally by: Liang Nuren Originally by: Fwaatcha lol "MASSIVE" rofl Compared to any lowsec alliance or coalition? Yeah. MASSIVE. Quote: Troll our KB Our first titan kill was done with BS and below when DD's were AOE Look even further into our history Theres numerous caps killed by BS and below, theres even one carrier we killed with nothing bigger thana cruiser Looks like a bunch of supercaps killing regular caps to me... http://killboard.cryhavoc-eve.net/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=86083 http://killboard.cryhavoc-eve.net/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=86012 http://killboard.cryhavoc-eve.net/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=85878 http://killboard.cryhavoc-eve.net/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=85877 http://killboard.cryhavoc-eve.net/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=85860 Man the list goes on and on and on. And since I've been on the receiving end of Cry Havoc bridges before, I know for fact that you use your titans to bridge all your support in. So what you're really saying when you tell me to troll your killboard is to show how Cry Havoc uses supercaps to gank regular capitals. Hell man, do you guys even kill them any other way now? TBQFH, it doesn't look like it. Maybe that's why you're so scared of losing your I-WIN buttons? Oh, what about those supercarrier kills? http://killboard.cryhavoc-eve.net/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=85330 - 13 supercarriers on the mail http://killboard.cryhavoc-eve.net/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=52024 - 5 supercarriers on the mail http://killboard.cryhavoc-eve.net/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=47450 - 2 titans on the mail ... Really? Do I need to go on? LOL? Quote: Do your homework before making posts like that Yes.... yes **ing indeed. -Liang Maybe you should borrow some money from Siigari and buy a clue.
Viper ShizzIe Habitual Euthanasia Dystopia Alliance	Posted - 2010.04.29 07:23:00 - [30] Originally by: Mistress Suffering Originally by: Liang Nuren Ed: Anyone else notice how Cry Havoc is pretty much the only people defending supercarriers in low sec? Unfortunately someone linked the thread on the alliance board and it confused people into thinking they were a better representative for alliance opinion than Deja. This is my dramawhinge thread get out

Viper ShizzIe Habitual Euthanasia Dystopia Alliance	Posted - 2010.04.29 21:34:00 - [31] Originally by: Liang Nuren Originally by: Asruv'ynn ...I most definitely agree that the biggest contributor to the supercapital's 'advantage' in lowsec is the lack of tackle.... The only real complaint I have seen in this thread is not the use of capitals in lowsec, but rather that large alliances are flaunting them out of their usual area of operation. That isn't a problem in game mechanics or balance; quite simply a social problem. If you don't like the actions of your close neighbors and can't deal with it, perhaps it's time to find another area of space to fly in. May I tl;dr your post as: - Yes, supercarriers are more powerful in low sec than in 0.0, and this incentivizes their use there - Yes, no native low sec alliance can reasonably deal with a single supercap, let alone the massive supercap drops that 0.0 alliances are throwing at solo phantasms - No, this isn't a problem because you can forego the small gang PVP lifestyle of low sec and join the 5000 man blobs of 0.0 or do highsec empire griefing. -Liang I'm still not sure how you think a phantasm is going to die to a mothership drop unless it is overwhelmingly ******ed.
Viper ShizzIe Habitual Euthanasia Dystopia Alliance	Posted - 2010.04.29 21:57:00 - [32] Originally by: Liang Nuren Originally by: Viper **zIe I'm still not sure how you think a phantasm is going to die to a mothership drop unless it is overwhelmingly ******ed. I'm not sure how you think this justifies supercarriers being more powerful in low sec than in 0.0 -Liang I'm not sure why you're literally dumb as hell
Viper ShizzIe Habitual Euthanasia Dystopia Alliance	Posted - 2010.04.30 04:44:00 - [33] Originally by: Liang Nuren Furthermore, yes, boosting them in 0.0 is also an option. Making them immune to titan dooms days and bubbles in 0.0 would also work. -Liang Yeah, if they were immune to bubbles and DDs in 0.0 they wouldn't need to be changed in lowsec because they wouldn't be more powerful. Good call.

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